Curse

HawkofStorms · Jun 23, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

I've heard some people who didn't get their points now have them. So even if it isn't listed, it might have been stealth updated in there.

MadHouse · Jun 23, 2009, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Short

Major flaw in your argument...NPCs do run from it in JQ now.

Really?....well wasnt aware of that hence I'm playing roj monk on JQ and never ever run one out of it as much as they did before....aka randomly... so yeah RoJ as it is as ever.

Yesterday I even saw a dervish again with RoJ what is a big lolz but still, even he could cap a shrine...so don't come with that that npc's running out from RoJ when they do this at best 1 time out of 10 which is retarded, randomly etc also it can be caused by several other things (by teh way the only ones that causally running out are the archers at my knowledge and I playing alot bc I'm very close to max rank).

Concluson that you trying to compare some random scatter which sometimes working sometimes not and was implemented bc of SC's (which are also works fine even with RoJ just you need more brain now to use it) with WK which has nothing to do with JQ but more like splitting, kiting and tactical gameplay in real PvP which this game is about.

P.S...won't post more on this matter bc this argument won't get us anywhere until anet really fixing things as they should, hf and gl.

reaper with no name · Jun 23, 2009, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Major flaw in your argument...NPCs do run from it in JQ now.

I was at the JQ today with my crazy RoJ derv and I didn't see any npcs running from RoJ.

If they do it, it occurs far too rarely to be considered anywhere near consistent.

Longasc · Jun 23, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

They could try to make Necros more interesting outside suicide bombs and skills that people hate like there is no tomorrow.

I call it undeserved hex hate. While nobody bothers about auto-attacking the crap out of other players, they hate hexes.

If we want to differentiate between more casual low and high pvp and whatever, The 3 degen and 20% healing reduction of Lingering Curse, even on spam, do not really endanger anyone in JQ or FA that much. Not even Gunther. People just hate long lasting hexes who already are tuned down to be pressure rather than actually being dangerous by itself.

Weaken Knees also assumes that the Necro hexes someone and then a player of your team, a melee, starts chasing the guy who then goes the "way of the turtle" and dies. Weaken Knees stops people, even a ranged attacker cannot just run after a Necro with this hex applied. It is more annoying than dangerous in the lower brackets. And how dangerous is it in GvG? I have not seen it outside of hexways.

The change made it unattractive to use it for -5 degen and a little damage on Warriors and to some extent on non-necro primaries in general, as the -x degen now scales with the attribute level.

Even at 16 Curses, Necros now have -1 less degen (-4 is max now, 20% down from -5) and 38% less damage for the additional damage while moving.

Now screw both WK and LC, bomb them to the stoneage. But do not forget to give especially Curses some BETTER elite skills and necros a role in PvP. They are not too common in High end PvP, Mesmers are much more common. In FA, JQ and AB I cannot say that playing my Necromancer is really that much fun.

For GW2, they have a lot of work to do. OK, maybe there will be entirely new classes and abilities anyways.

Still, I am not too fond on my Necro being primarly a PvE expert and being rather limited in PvP, for Mesmers it is outside of PvE skill powered builds quite the opposite (though I personally found quite good Mesmer builds that do not primarily rely on Cry and Ether Nightmare for PvE, too).

For those who do not bother to read more than one paragraph, SHORT VERSION: I am not happy about the state of Necros in PvP in general. (And of Elementalists in Hard Mode PvE)

Longasc · Jun 23, 2009, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Regarding RoJ:

Yes, NPCs do run now, but it still makes no difference, they just die like before.

Which is somehow funny...^^

AKB48 · Jun 23, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Regarding RoJ:

Yes, NPCs do run now, but it still makes no difference, they just die like before.

Which is somehow funny...^^

Do you mean the npcs run>but they run too late so they die anyways from the burning? 'Cause I thought this update fixed that.

Elendhor · Jun 23, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

undeserved hex hate

I'm sorry to disillusion you, but A-Net is hardly interested in JQ etc. when it comes to balancing. You haven't played GvG lately (no offense, it's just that A-Net concentrates their PvP Skill Updates on this part of the game). Hex-Pressure was nasty. WN and LC was nasty. WN is still quite nasty.

Šiljo · Jun 23, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Stealth update today?just downloaded 1 file

Still Number One · Jun 23, 2009, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elendhor

WN is still quite nasty.

That is because all they did was try to make it useless for warriors to run it.

ManMadeGod · Jun 24, 2009, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Now screw both WK and LC, bomb them to the stoneage. But do not forget to give especially Curses some BETTER elite skills and necros a role in PvP. They are not too common in High end PvP.
I am not happy about the state of Necros in PvP in general. (And of Elementalists in Hard Mode PvE)

LC has been nerfed several times. And WK will once again be a forgotten skill.

They don't want necros to play spikers.
They don't want hexway.
Even Foul Feast is nerfed, ANet defines necro a strange role.

Even Curses don't have much decent elite skills for PvP.

And look at blood magic, it's really a poor line in both PvE and PvP. Oppressive Gaze and Angorodon's Gaze were once good skills, but have been rendered useless. The only thing people remember is BiP.

I personally thing blood magics should be much more creative rather than full of small life stealing craps.

For example, skills such as infuse health and scourge healing sound much more like blood magics rather than monk spells in other games.

draxynnic · Jun 24, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

I think what I was referring to was PwK armor bonus + the +10 armor while holding an item insignia, which is +20 armor overall.

Which is also costing you your insignia slot, which could be Radiant's, or Survivor's, or, y'know, any insignia that actually sees use.

Quote:

20 damage: game changing. Actually, that would be a wand. Spear is more like... 2.

It's two more than you get while carrying an item... and a heck of a lot more if it's being used in synergy with orders, MoP, or Barbs.

Quote:

The item bonuses are there to offset the loss of energy. If you want more energy, that's where the sacrificial part of the game comes in to play. More energy > effect of the item? Drop it. Not? Keep it. Also keep in mind that "effect" is not only refering to the passive effect, but also the one that takes place after it is dropped (assuming it has one, as in the case of PwK).

Again, sacrifice.

I've already accepted this argument in principle. However, the fact that people don't use them suggests that they simply aren't worth the sacrifices.

Quote:

Most of them aren't, as is the case with most of the rit skills. This is due to a poorly designed class. Buff them? They're too powerful. Nerf them? They're unusable. Most of the rit class needs a complete reworking, which won't happen.

Nope, ANet would never do anything to change Ritualists. Certainly not in PvE. After all, it hasn't happened in any recent update that I can think of.

Quote:

Just to drive my point home, here are a few examples of why this is bad:
Energetic Was Lee Sa: If you take the passive item effect and combine it with extra energy, that would be a necro or ele's wet dream.

The necro or ele won't get that energy unless they're a Rit primary, and Ele and Necro primaries have enough energy management already.

Quote:

Generous Was Tsungrai: I can have more health AND more energy? obaby.

Actually, you probably still have more health and LESS energy... and you've also lost access to your HSR and HCT mods. It's just less by a smaller amount.

Quote:

Mighty Was Vorizun: Health, armor, and even more energy, oh my.

Which I'm pretty sure I've already mentioned as one that would have to be rebalanced... since ANet buffed it when they realised how pointless it was to have a +energy pot when summoning that pot lost you the energy bonuses you had in your weapons.

Quote:

Just thought of this and don't feel like scrolling up: Right now rits are limited by their energy. Throwing items into it only helps this out, because they have to choose between their energy pool and the item effect. If they were to have more energy, what's stopping them from just spamming resilient weapon an 5 people, and warding on the other 2, while keeping party heals going through PwK, and having an extra 20 armor just because?

Yes, because gaining 1 extra energy per point spent in an attribute that is rarely used except for spirit spamming is really going to keep the ritualist spamming for more than, oh, three more casts.

ogre_jd · Jun 24, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManMadeGod

And look at blood magic, it's really a poor line in both PvE and PvP. Oppressive Gaze and Angorodon's Gaze were once good skills, but have been rendered useless. The only thing people remember is BiP.

No knocking Blood Magic in PvE. My Ranger going all touchy-feely with it has him kicking more butt in PvE than I've ever been able to get him to do with a bow.

On Rits...

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

However, the fact that people don't use them suggests that they simply aren't worth the sacrifices.

They're worth the sacrifices - but, personally, I avoid most Item Spells because holding an item seems to make calling targets for the H/H not work properly and do little more than to cause me to run at the target (and shift-ctrl-clicking to try and call the target without moving seems to get completely ignored by the H/H instead of just sometimes ignored).

draxynnic · Jun 24, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

They're worth the sacrifices - but, personally, I avoid most Item Spells because holding an item seems to make calling targets for the H/H not work properly and do little more than to cause me to run at the target (and shift-ctrl-clicking to try and call the target without moving seems to get completely ignored by the H/H instead of just sometimes ignored).

Point. You could say that's another sacrifice, but it's an interface issue rather than a design feature.

Longasc · Jun 24, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManMadeGod

They don't want necros to play spikers.
They don't want hexway.
Even Foul Feast is nerfed, ANet defines necro a strange role.

Indeed. They have no place and no love for Necros in PvP. And no idea what to do with them either.

What shall Necros do actually. They are not allowed to do what they could do.

Everything that can screw up Melees (read: to 99% this means Warriors) is considered bad. Because nothing else besides physical attackers is viable to kill stuff for extended periods of time. But this is what Necros could and should do, counter melee. They have lots of enchantment removal and curses mostly focused on anti-melee mechanics.

Annoying primarily casters on the other hand with hexes and interrupts seems to be very viable. This is what Mesmers do.

And when everything is in the supposedly right order, not much blocking, not much hexes, the Metagame is considered "stale and boring".

Elendhor · Jun 24, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Seriously, do you even play PvP?
Necros are still an effective class.
Hexes aren't dead just because some really overpowered Skills got nerfed...
They are still viable in RA,TA (Faint...easy cover...FF/PS etc.). Same goes with GvG etc.
The pressure the nerfed skills (LC, WN, and to SOME extent Suffering) created was disproportionated to the energy/recast etc. the skills had.
And trust me on that: Some kind of Hexway will come back soon to PvP ... there already new builds tested around (Corrupt Enchantment with Barbs, Cultists Fevor etc.).

Bug John · Jun 24, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManMadeGod

They don't want necros to play spikers.

why would you want to spike when you can bloodspam anything to death ? call it bloodspike if it makes you feel better, it's still the most retarded and overpowered build in game

anyway, watch obs mode on a double champ weekend and come back here to tell us how necros are useless in gvg

Michael805 · Jun 24, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

long post

Basically what I want to respond to here is that for your suggestion to go through, there would have to be an ungodly amount of changes to both the class mechanics and skills.

Although they did update quite a few skills in the past update, how long did it take for them to actually change those skills? Most of the skills that were buffed (in reference to spirits) got nerfed years ago. Anet, unfortunately, refuses to do large skill updates for all classes combined, they won't make enormous changes for one class.

I would even seriously doubt they would make the change if it was just a simple matter of changing the primary and a few skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I've already accepted this argument in principle. However, the fact that people don't use them suggests that they simply aren't worth the sacrifices.

I will reply to this one. Most people don't make the sacrifices because they either don't consider them, or are too lazy/bad to do them. That's more in a reference to general weapon swapping though, rather than weapon/item consideration.

ManMadeGod · Jun 25, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

why would you want to spike when you can bloodspam anything to death ? call it bloodspike if it makes you feel better, it's still the most retarded and overpowered build in game

anyway, watch obs mode on a double champ weekend and come back here to tell us how necros are useless in gvg

The point is, they nerfed blood spells to stop life stealing spike.
(OG, AG, etc.) But didn't redesign them to something new/viable, simply reduce the amount of life stealing or increase the recharge. That made a boring attribute line even more boring.
For example, Mark of Subversion is mush less useful than Shame. Consider remake some skills' functions.
We don't want so many life stealing skills, give me something different.

There surely were some necro builds. But mostly LC and WN before nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

call it bloodspike if it makes you feel better, it's still the most retarded and overpowered build in game

If you are talking about N/As vamp spirit build, come on... it only works in limited maps and can be countered by most ballanced builds easily. If you can't, even after all gazes' nerf, there is nothing more to say.

And I am not a necros spike build lover, what I would like to see is more viability for all classes in GvG.
Bassically, dervs, sins and necros are relative uncommon in GvG (compared to war, ranger, ele, mes and monk).

shoyon456 · Jun 25, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManMadeGod

And I am not a necros spike build lover, what I would like to see is more viability for all classes in GvG.
Bassically, dervs, sins and necros are relative uncommon in GvG (compared to war, ranger, ele, mes and monk).

Please tell me you are applying to the live Krewe test team. And i pray you get accepted.

It seems your ideas and IQ are higher than all of the live team's put together, seriously. If anet would listened to rational, intelligent people like yourself this game might not have gone the way it has.

AKB48 · Jun 25, 2009, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManMadeGod

If you are talking about N/As vamp spirit build, come on... it only works in limited maps and can be countered by most ballanced builds easily. If you can't, even after all gazes' nerf, there is nothing more to say.

And I am not a necros spike build lover, what I would like to see is more viability for all classes in GvG.
Bassically, dervs, sins and necros are relative uncommon in GvG (compared to war, ranger, ele, mes and monk).

I agree with you on the grounds of multiple player-vs-player.(Like in AB, JQ, RA, GvG, etc). Since I have played 1v1 with my MB ele against a Vamp spirit Bspiker and lost, while he retained around 70%+ hp. So BS is powerful, really powerful in some cases in a 1v1, long time limit situation. However, with alot of people involved, BS is far weaker compared to an ele. Since BS can only spam blood magic skills, while an ele can do a variety of damage to the opponent.